talk politics professionally | transformation talks

“politics affects tax laws, compliance, and financial decisions. we can’t afford to ignore it.”

 

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transformation talks
with donny shimamoto
center for accounting transformation

politics and business have always been intertwined, but today’s climate of deep division presents new challenges for accounting professionals. whether discussing tax policy, compliance, or broader economic issues, accountants often find themselves in conversations that can quickly become contentious. 

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in this episode of transformation talks, host donny shimamoto, cpa.citp, cgma leads a discussion with brian tankersley, cpa.citp, cgma; ron baker, cpa (inactive), and amy welch, apr, cae, on how accountants can navigate political differences while maintaining professionalism, respect, and productive dialogue. 

accountants are more than number crunchers—they are trusted advisors. as such, they must address politically charged topics with clients and colleagues while maintaining neutrality and professionalism. however, in an era where ideological divides are deepening, even casual conversations can lead to tension. 

shimamoto, founder and managing director of intraprisetechknowlogies llc and founder and inspiration architect of the center for accounting transformation, was inspired to host this discussion after witnessing a heated political debate at an industry dinner. while one participant disengaged, tankersley, owner of brian f. tankersley, cpa.citp, director of strategic relationships with k2 enterprises, leaned into the conversation, seeking to understand the other perspective rather than dismissing it. 

“i wanted to understand why she felt the way she did,” tankersley explains. “we may disagree, but that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from each other.” 

baker, founder of the verasage institute and radio co-host of the?www.voiceamerica.com show,?the soul of enterprise: business in the knowledge economy, echoes this sentiment. “i love debating ideas, but i don’t take it personally,” baker says. “some of my closest friends hold completely different political views. the key is to listen—really listen.” 

the panelists offered several strategies to foster productive conversations in professional settings: 

• adopt a mindset of curiosity, not persuasion – “people shut down when they feel attacked,” notes welch, a mission advocacy strategist for the center and a senior vice president and executive producer for 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间. “approach conversations with the goal of understanding, not changing minds.” 

• recognize common ground – “people often focus on differences rather than similarities,” shimamoto observes. “yet, when we have open discussions, we discover shared values that unite us.” 

• create a workplace culture that embraces diverse views – instead of banning political discussions, firms should focus on fostering an environment where employees can engage in civil discourse. 

• defuse tension with humor – “levity negates gravity,” says baker. “when a conversation gets too serious, humor can bring people back together.” 

beyond the individual benefits of better communication, firms that encourage open dialogue see tangible advantages. employees who feel heard and respected work better together, leading to stronger teams and higher engagement. 

“the ability to have tough conversations without hostility is a skill that improves workplace culture, client relationships, and even decision-making,” tankersley explains. 

shimamoto adds, “when we embrace dialogue, we strengthen our teams, our profession, and ultimately, our ability to serve clients effectively.” 

in a world where many are quick to shut down opposing views, accounting professionals have an opportunity to lead by example—demonstrating that civil discourse isn’t just possible but essential. 

8 top takeaways 

1. seek to understand, not persuade. conversations are more productive when approached with curiosity rather than an intent to “win.” 
2. respect different perspectives. political beliefs are deeply tied to personal experiences. listening to someone’s “why” can help build mutual respect. 
3. common ground is key. even if people disagree on some issues, there are often many more where collaboration is possible. 
4. accounting professionals must navigate political topics. tax laws, compliance, and regulations are politically driven. cpas must be skilled in discussing them objectively. 
5. create a culture of open dialogue. instead of banning difficult discussions, firms should encourage professional, respectful conversations that build stronger teams. 
6. don’t take offense too easily. allowing differences of opinion fosters critical thinking and personal growth. 
7. use humor to diffuse tension. levity can be a great tool to keep conversations productive and engaging. 
8. the best learning happens outside your comfort zone. engaging with opposing viewpoints can expand knowledge and lead to unexpected insights. 

transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)

donny shimamoto  00:42

all right, welcome everyone to another episode of transformation talks. today, we’re going to take a little bit of a different angle in what we’re doing. usually we’re talking about firms that have successfully gone through transformation and what we’re doing. but today, we’re taking a little bit of a different approach. today, we’re really going to be looking at what do firms or individuals at firms really need to do to help support this transformation as we look at everything that’s going on, i’m going to say in the world, but primarily what’s going on here in the states, and i’ve got a great panel today as we kind of look at things. so i’m going to, i’m going to ask them to introduce themselves, so that i don’t butcher everything first on my camera is actually amy. so amy,

 

amy welch  01:35

hi, i’m amy welch. i’m a principal consultant for itk and mission advocacy strategist for the center for accounting transformation. i’m also a senior vice president and executive producer for 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间.

 

donny shimamoto  01:49

thank you, amy. so, amy is actually, i’m going to put out, kind of our pr expert on the panel here. if you didn’t read in between the lines there. ron?

 

ron baker  01:59

i’m ron baker. i’m cohost of the soul of enterprise, which is the radio show i do with ed kless the past 10 years. and we also co-founded a new company called threshold, where we’re trying to light a lantern for the profession to bring them into the transformation economy, which i think is the next big thing that we’re seeing out there.

 

donny shimamoto  02:21

i love that, and i have heard you talk about transformation, and i think we’re definitely in alignment, and a lot of the way we’re viewing that, and especially in the profession. last but not least, brian.

 

brian tankersley  02:31

hi. i’m brian tankersley. i’m a cpa, and have worked with k2 enterprises for about the last 20 years. i also do a podcast called the accounting technology lab for cpa practice advisor, and i’ve published a couple 100 product reviews. i also, you know, in my work with k2 i’ve spoken in 48 states. any of you in vermont and delaware, i need you. i have two sticky notes on that checklist that i need to work out. okay, so i’ll make you a deal anyway.

 

ron baker  03:03

that means you’ve been to alaska. i love it.

 

brian tankersley  03:08

yeah, yeah. it was a lot of fun. got to drive through the whittier tunnel and everything. it was really cool.

 

donny shimamoto  03:14

so i’m going to give you guys some context for the inspiration of the podcast. so brian and i were at cpa practice, advisor, thought leader symposium the other month, and we ended up at at the dinner table together, and i actually heard brian ragging on one of the other people that were at the table about basically her liberal views on on some of the things. and that made me want to engage him in a conversation, because i with everything that’s been going on, we’ve seen politicization of so many different things and an almost inability, which actually kind of happened at the table, because the person he was talking to started going like this to him and ignoring him. but i chose to do the opposite, and i chose to engage brian in the conversation, and as we kind of talk through that, i think we both had a great dinner discussion. walked away, i think, with insights on different approaches to things. and i thought, you know, this is one of the things that is really missing in the world as a whole, but it’s even more important in our profession, because we need to look at different points of view and understand different points of view, and oftentimes we have to be able to accept others and their and their points of view, if not necessarily spend the whole time arguing and just kind of turning away, because we have to work with them. so thank you to amy and ron for joining us on on this as well. to provide additional perspective, my pleasure, where do we want to where do we want to start on this? i actually don’t

 

amy welch  04:50

know. i think it’s interesting that you first bring up that when, when brian was engaged. engaging with somebody or giving his point of view about something, that the person automatically started shutting brian out based on your description of the event. and i think i read somewhere that when you engage someone in a political discussion, for starters, if you’re if you’re actually going into it to understand somebody’s point of view, that makes it a lot better than just feeling automatically like i don’t agree with you, and so i’m not going to engage, and i’m certainly not going to listen. so i think that’s a good place to start. how do you approach it? by going in without trying to make somebody feel respected and valued, but going at it from a seek, from a position of seeking to understand versus seeking to persuade, or worse, insult?

 

brian tankersley  05:56

i knew there was no way i was going to change this person’s mind and and honestly, my discussion with this person, i really wanted to understand why she felt the way she did. because, you know, i, i gotta be honest with you here, i i listen to both sides of the aisle, because i learned something from what they’re telling me, and i learned something from, you know, just from the conversation. and, you know, many times there are things that one party or another has done 2030, years ago that caused somebody to just absolutely hate those things, you know. and, and i’ve, i’ve been through a lot of, a lot of things like that. you know, i moved from tennessee, rural tennessee, to northern california. and as a conservative in northern california, i can assure you, we were minor. we were a distinct minority, okay? and, you know, again, i’m, you know, i’m, i want everybody to have their own opinion and to believe what they believe and to share what they share. and when i talk about politics, i talk, you know, i listen to npr and i watch fox news, and i probably actually listen to more npr than i watch fox news and and i’ll just say that i think there’s, i think there’s real value in talking to the other people, because we’re never going to get along if we don’t speak with each other, and we’re never going to find that common ground, okay? and you know, we may not be able to work on two or three issues, but that doesn’t mean there are 20 issues that we can find a solution for. now, you may think this, i may think the solution is private charity, and you may think the solution is a social program, and that’s okay, but we agree that there’s a problem, and we agree that something needs to be done.

 

ron baker  07:45

yeah, i really like what you said, amy, about not being adversarial, but to seek to understand, one of the things i’ve been experimenting with is is telling the person be forewarned, i will probably take your side in this argument or in this discussion, and that kind of forces me to really engage with their ideas, not just with the person, but with the ideas that and i think we get lost in that. we make it personal. i love debating ideas. i’ll debate ideas with anybody, anytime, anywhere, but i don’t view it as personal. some of my best friends are completely opposite of me politically, but i understand where they’re coming from, and i understand how they got there, and i’m always really curious if somebody changed their mind on an issue, because we all have and i’m interested in that process. so i just view it when, especially when somebody disagrees with me, like at a dinner, at a conference or something, i want to lean into that and see where they’re coming from. i

 

brian tankersley  08:50

almost think, almost think, in those conversations, you know, the the thing, and maybe you know the thing i’m looking for in that is not any kind of influence or anything like that, i think more than anything, i want to understand why, and i want to talk about the idea. and i think the idea and the why and the where you’re coming from is important because you get to know that person, and then that helps you understand better why they think the way they do, why they believe the way they do. and in many cases, there’s a whole story there that that you would never know, that that helps you understand better, why they see the world the way they do. yeah.

 

ron baker  09:29

the other thing i find really interesting about this entire topic is, you know, human beings, i believe, are defined by what they believe, not what they know we’re, we’re cpas. here, three of us are, i think, right. i’m not sure, amy, if you are, but we know what we know we’re cpas. we can bond over that. we can talk about common issues and and all of that. to really get to know somebody, i have to know what you believe. you know. how do you vote? where do you stand? on the board? shouldn’t, i mean, bring up the most contentious, hot button issues, but that will give me an idea of what you believe, and i and i really think that’s important to understand, not just what people know, but what they believe, because that leads to more meaningful and deeper conversations, even if you don’t have the same beliefs.

 

donny shimamoto  10:21

that’s an interesting interesting comment, because that’s we’re taught, especially coming in, i think even at university through university, that those are known all topics in the workplace, right? religion, politics, like we don’t go there. so i find it interesting that you’re, you’re providing this advice of i really got to understand what someone believes.

 

ron baker  10:42

well, you don’t have to start out right out of the gate with abortion or something. you can talk about what’s going on or politically. there’s always, i mean, i don’t know how it was in your days, you guys, but when i was at the big eight, we’d be out on a job. and you know, you go to lunch with these people every day. you’re out there for two or three weeks, maybe longer, you bond with them. you talk about stuff as you’re doing your work, and of course, you’re going to talk politics, not just what you did on the weekend, or whatever it comes up. and that’s how i feel. i get to know somebody you know, and you make a connection with

 

amy welch  11:17

them. in doing research for this, i found this interesting quote that i wanted to share with you because, because it goes directly to what we’re saying. it’s it’s interesting that there are topics that we’re not supposed to be talking about, but at the same time, you do need to bond. so what the quote is, talking politics unearths deep core values when we interpret those values as being challenged or undermined by those we trust or with whom we share a bond, the feelings of defensiveness, indignation and even betrayal can be overwhelming. so i thought when we were talking about that’s why this can be a tricky subject, because it absolutely approaches upon our inner beliefs, like what you were saying, as far as that defines who we are, and it can feel like, in some cases, if we’re not, if we’re not, if we don’t feel respected for our individual beliefs, it can feel like your inner being is being questioned. yeah,

 

ron baker  12:19

that’s true. i mean, we have to be adults about it. and more important, donnie, to your point, we have to be colleagues. i mean, when i’m engaged with colleagues, i’ve got they’ve already got my respect right away, just just because we share something, a common body of knowledge, expertise, all of that. and if we want to talk politics, i’m okay to jump in that fray. just be adult about it. but

 

donny shimamoto  12:47

right, right. look, you were gonna jump in there. i,

 

brian tankersley  12:49

you know, i, i think, i think we’ve got to stop hating on each other as a country, you know, it’s, there’s, you know? it really blows me away. sometimes when you know, because people will say, well, you can be my friend as long as you agree with me, you know. and i don’t want to be your friend, then okay, because i i want to discuss ideas, you know. and i get a lot from it. i learn a lot. i learn perspectives i didn’t know. and sometimes i change my mind, you know. and i get that. sometimes people have emotional issues surrounding discussing particular topics, you know, i get that. and you know, if that’s a topic you want to talk about, that’s fine. but i think you also have to be careful when somebody brings it up, to not make them feel less than because they don’t agree with you, and not jump into the i’m going to call you 15 million names, because you see the world differently than i do, and your experiences in life are different than mine, you know, i i think it’s, you know, i think everybody has something positive to share with the world. and you know, part of the conversation is to try to figure out what that is you can talk about that’s positive that you do this. you know, i can sure. i can ask you about your daughter’s wedding. and, you know, we can talk. we can talk about things that don’t mean anything, but that doesn’t really help me under you know that helps me understand that at one point, you’ve owned an etiquette book and you’ve written a few thank you notes in your life. that doesn’t help me understand that you you know why you believe, what you believe and and what it is that makes you tick. because sometimes you’ll talk to somebody, and there will be something that makes them tick, that also makes you tick, and you would have never seen it coming, you know, came in from outer space. you know. maybe you like working, helping the homeless. maybe you like you know, maybe you you like to talk about travel to exotic places. you know, maybe there’s, maybe there’s something else in your past that’s interesting about you. like, i used to be a teaching assistant for a tractor driving class at uc davis. you know, not everybody knew that. okay, yes, there is a tractor driving class for college credit. yes, i liked it so much. i didn’t take it twice. i became the teaching assistant. okay, you know, but it’s there are things like that that you learn about, people that that not only make you laugh, but it helps you, i think it helps you connect with the other people and and again, you don’t. i don’t expect people to agree with me on everything. okay? and we don’t have to have a debate on an issue if it’s particularly contentious, you know, but i think the the hard thing here is that we given how easy it is for for anything you say to anybody to create offense, i think we have to be very careful to, you know, when we’re talking to other people, to try very hard not to take offense. okay, even if they say something that you find offensive, i try very hard to not be, to not take offense at it okay? because taking offense doesn’t help anybody. okay, you said something, you know. again, i’m a big boy. i you know. you don’t, you know. you don’t think that. you know, you don’t agree with the way i think, and you think that the way i think is evil. that’s great. i learned something about you, okay, you know, and, and that’s fine, but i think it’s, i think in general, we only get to the places where we can collaborate with others and where we can, where we can, you know, we can find those things we have in common by having those hard discussions and looking at, looking at what those core beliefs are. and you know, again, sometimes it’s uncomfortable. you know, we have a right in this country to speak. we don’t have a right to not be offended. okay? and i assure you, there are plenty of things that have been said to me that offended me. but you know, i try to back up and say, you know, i’m going to turn the other cheek and let it go, because it’s there’s nothing positive going to be achieved by being being offended. all it’s going to do is alienate the other person and make my soul rot, because i’m going to feel like i’ve been done wrong. okay, the best thing to do is just to move on and do talk about something else, or don’t talk at all. that’s fine.

 

ron baker  17:24

yeah, i’m not going to relinquish my agency to somebody else because they offended me. i mean, that’s not going to happen. they can’t bully me. i’m not i’m not going to give them that power.

 

amy welch  17:37

if you feel like you’ve offended them, how do you re engage them in a way so as to reinforce that you’re trying to understand their position versus, uh oh, i feel like i’ve kind of stepped on something here. let me back up and try to get you back into the fold so that we can have that meaningful dialog.

 

ron baker  17:57

if i said something wrong that offended them, then you know they might be owed an apology, but if they’re just offended because i express a viewpoint about something, i think that’s on them that tells me and the world, i think more about them than it does me. i just don’t it’s like today we’re sitting around waiting to be offended, and the canary in the coal mine on this is comedians. this is why jerry seinfeld and bunch of others will not play in college campuses, because everybody gets offended at any this is a comedy. if comedians can’t, you know, that’s what they do. people say, oh, you’re punching down, or, you know, you should be punching up. no. comedians job is to punch back. they’re supposed to take on all comers, make fun of everybody, ridicule. i mean, every every joke, is a tiny revolution. george orwell said, and i don’t know if you’re offended by a comedian, wow, you’re not gonna like some of the things i say. i promise you, well

 

donny shimamoto  19:03

that, well, that’s why i invited you, ron, because i know there’s a bunch of people that don’t like what you say. i know you’ve grown a thick skin on that one, but you know, i’m listening to this, and i actually find it really interesting. so coming from hawaii, where we’re we’re very i the we’ve always said it. i’ve always heard it said that in hawaii, where the melting pot, the more experience i’ve had on the mainland, which now has been about 20 years, where i’m pretty working across nationally, the more i realize it really is true. and this whole comedy thing is an interesting one, because in hawaii, we make fun of every race. there’s something about every race that we make fun of. it’s part of the everyday jokes. yet when i hear it, and when i learned this whole concept of microaggression, i was like, oh, on the mainland, it’s considered a microaggression to do this, and you’ve got all these people getting. offended, and we’re just kind of past that point in hawaii where it’s like, yeah, it’s comedy, and you learn that there’s not an intention to hurt. and part of that is accepting, sometimes the foibles of our stereotypes, because that’s what a lot of it’s based on. it’s just the stereotype.

 

ron baker  20:19

yeah, john cleese, monty, python fame, said all comedy is critical, and it is, and it’s supposed to be, and it’s critical of us as humanity. you know, there’s a great line about a play being conducted in a public park in new york with actors, and there’s scenes where there’s fornication, and the line is, you know, the liberals are upset because the actors aren’t being paid minimum wage, and the conservatives are upset because, well, i mean, it’s, it’s, you know, advocating premarital sex, and the libertarians are distraught that there’s a public park. i mean, it’s a great summation of world views that are sort of at odds with one another. but you know, it’s also a joke that

 

donny shimamoto  21:09

your comment there reminds me of our prep call where you had brought up, i think the the two, the the two dichotomies of each of the perspectives as well. do you remember what i’m referring to? can you share that against i think that, i think we all found that pretty insightful.

 

ron baker  21:24

yeah, that this is from a book called the three languages of politics, which i highly recommend. short little book by the economist arnold cling. and he lays out an axis, basically, for progressives, they tend to and look, these are broad generalizations, so take it with a vat assault. but i think there’s some validity here. progressives, they say, look at the world, kind of from an oppressor oppressed axis, right? and you can think about the israeli war. you can think about the ukraine war. for this, conservatives tend to look at a civilization versus barbarism axis. and again, look at the israel war. and then libertarians tend to look at a liberty, coercion, access. they want things to be voluntary, not be coerced by the government. everything’s got to be voluntary, the non aggression principle, you know, do unto others, type of thing. and i found his book very enlightening with those because it gives you, it gives you an understanding of where they’re coming from. you

 

brian tankersley  22:33

know, i think we also have to be very careful when we’re when we’re talking to people, just because somebody agrees with a the liberal view or the the conservative view for one one particular issue, doesn’t mean they agree on everything. okay, you know, i, i get p, you know, people, people talk to me all the time about this politician or that politician. and, you know, i’ve been able to find something good about every president in my lifetime, some of them, you know, you know, jimmy carter helped people he, you know, after, you know, i didn’t, you know, i was young enough that i didn’t have to live through as an adult hit the, you know, his presidency as a child. but you know, he did a lot of great things after he after he left, you know. and i think there’s, there are great things that can be done, and great things that can be done, you know, in in the pursuit of this issue or that issue or something else. and i think it’s, i think we have to understand that nobody agrees with every, every action taken by a a particular politician, you know. again, i mean, you you talk about this, you know. and you know, somebody might say to a republican, well, halliburton and the gulf war, and then somebody might say back to him, well, you know, hunter biden’s laptop, you know. and you know, everybody, everybody has got their share of crooks. everybody’s got their share of things. there’s, there’s plenty of, there’s plenty of bad folks to go around. but i think the ideas are the important part, you know, the the why? the, what was your life experience? what was your childhood like? you know? what? what did you know? where did you grow up? what did you learn when you lived there? because, you know, i i grew up. i lived till i was in i lived in tennessee till i was 16, then i lived in northern california. cal for five years, and then i moved back to knoxville, tennessee, and i live here, you know. and i had, and then having, having traveled a million and a half air miles teaching cpe all over north america, i, you know, there are at least eight different cultures, in eight different major cultures in this country, you know, and they all have different origins. there are different accents, there are different beliefs as to why they believe one way or another. and you know, i think we have to give people credit for being a whole human being that that you know, may agree with you on something and may disagree on. something else, and that’s okay, because you’re, you’re what you’re, what we’re trying to do here is to find that connection again and to understand what makes them tick. and, you know, again, it’s, it’s not intended to be an inquisition, but it’s, i think that, you know, i i just really struggle with how to connect with with folks, you know, if you can’t discuss the issues of the day, you know, there’s only so much talking about dogs and sports teams you don’t care about that you can really do, you know? and what have you really accomplished at the end? oh, great. well, you both, okay, great. you both think the cubs think this year. okay, great. well, boy, that helped us get a lot closer to working together, or not working together, or or understanding what kind of client this person wants. and, you know, maybe there’s maybe, maybe there’s some synergy. maybe there’s a particular kind of client you have that you hate working with, and i love working with those folks, you know, and looking for that bigger pie, i think, is the is the critical thing, and looking at somebody as a whole person,

 

ron baker  26:15

i’m not even sure we agree with ourselves over time, you know, we change our minds and flip on topics. so yeah, i totally agree, brian, it’s a great point about you can find good in any president. i will. you guys probably remember this as well, but i think it was 1994 when the republicans took control of congress. newt gingrich was the speaker. and there was a lot of talk in the air, and i mean, a lot of talk about a flat tax. you remember this well practicing cpa who did taxes? i got questions left and right from every customer. how’s this going to impact me? so, so one year, i think it was 95 and i did this for a few years, as this debate raged on, i would when i went over their tax return with them, i showed them i had the postcard tax return, and i showed them this is what you would have paid with a flat tax. it wasn’t political. i was trying to explain the difference between these two ideas, and they really appreciated that, even if the flat tax say would have been lower, they said, well, i’m glad it’s not that way, because i like paying my taxes and i like the government services and all of that, no matter where they were on the political spectrum. they appreciated that because they could see the impact on their pocketbook. it was brought home to them, rather than just talking about it, you know, conceptually as the economy as a whole,

 

donny shimamoto  27:45

that’s one of you funny. you mentioned that i just recorded another podcast, i think it was literally yesterday, where we were talking about, what happens if we didn’t have the irs anymore, and we talked about we would have to move to a flat tax to for something like that to come even close to happening. i want to revisit, because i think both of you actually brought it up at different points in time about this ability to work with others, and i think that starts to become the underlying why do firms need to do this? and it’s your team actually can perform much higher and much stronger as a team, when everyone actually has that connection to each other. doesn’t have to be the agreement, but that connection to each other, and that’s really why there is an incentive, i think, for firms, any organization, not just accounting firms, to really look at this and enable these types of conversations to occur, because i do see some where they actually say, like, you are not to talk about this and that and whatever, because it’s going to cause problems. but when you kind of flip that and go, well, if we are able to have these conversations as adults and not be offended so easily, we can actually become stronger as a team, or maybe i can put the people together that will be stronger as a team to then deliver that better results.

 

ron baker  29:10

yeah, that i was thinking that as we were all chatting about this, what would happen if you went to the extreme of telling your people no politics do not i guarantee you they’re going to talk about politics more probably, if you had a role that way. because we just don’t like to be told what not to do. you know? it’s like having the secret closet that your dad won’t let you near. well, that’s all you’re going to be thinking about. what’s in there, you know? and you’re going to go check it out. yeah, i i’m not sure it’s healthy to avoid these discussions if they come up voluntarily.

 

donny shimamoto  29:49

the other thing that i heard come up earlier, and i think brian said it, but i know ron also had said it in something else too. was too often perhaps we’re focused on the. differences, and not enough on the similarities and this. this is one of the reasons i’ve i’ve always hated the generational differences talks, because, to me, amen, focus on those. all we do is create bigger divides. when, instead of looking at, how are we all the same and how, how are we all, in effect, trying to achieve the same thing, which in our profession, even more so, is we’re all relatively in the same mission in helping our clients.

 

ron baker  30:27

yeah, that generational discussion is astrology without the entertainment value. i think, i think it’s ridiculous. i really do. and, you know, there’s a better framework for it, and can’t get into it here. but rather than thinking about horizontally, different generations on the time, think vertically. because we’re all aging. we’re all climbing up or down, however you want to view it, that vertical axis, what can we learn from the older people? what can the older people teach the younger people? because the younger people are going to be up there someday. so i like the vertical conception of that rather than the horizontal, because point

 

amy welch  31:05

their values are going to change as they get older. what was important to them when they were in college is not necessarily going to be as important to them when they’re raising a family. yep.

 

ron baker  31:17

exactly. that’s exactly, right. yeah. so anyway,

 

brian tankersley  31:24

you know, the other thing that i think is important is, i think you have to have some self deprecation in this, you know? you have to be willing to laugh at yourself and the ridiculousness of some of the things that that people you may agree with, but they’re they’re nuts, you know, i and i’m nuts. i’m crazy to believe this, but this is how i feel. you know, it’s how you feel, it’s okay, it’s how you feel. you can disagree agreeably, okay, and and you can, you can have a conversation and have a deeper connection with somebody and understand what makes them tick. and then, you know, hey, we don’t, we tread led lightly around this topic, and maybe we can talk about this topic in here. and so, you know, if i’m going to see ron, maybe i, maybe i look at the giants page and the giants score in the sports page. and you know, that’s and if i’m going to see donnie, i look at the best meal that i’ve had lately, and if i’m going to see amy, you know, we’re going to trade notes about about another topic. you know, the the thing about, the thing about this, is that you can’t, if you don’t, if, if you understand somebody, it’s a lot easier to motivate them, and it’s a lot easier to put in context what they’re asking for and or what, what, what you what you can do for them. and it’s, it’s a lot easier to, again, to find agreement. if you’re, if you’re in a situation where you have a low level of trust and you think some of the other person hates you because you exist, that’s a bad relationship, and that’s one you got to work on. and the way you work on it is you talk to people, you do things with them. and even if you think it’s stupid to sit out there and play croquet in the middle of some park, you know, you’re doing it so that you can have a laugh together and maybe create some kind of connection. even if you think it’s the stupidest sport in the entire world, you go out there and you you give it that, and you do stupid things yourself, and you laugh at yourself.

 

ron baker  33:27

yeah. you know, peter thiel has a great question he likes to ask people before, you know, in the interviewing process, tell me something you believe that most people don’t that that opens up all sorts of vistas of people’s psyche. i love that question, because you get some really interesting and like, i believe in ufos or, you know, whatever it might be. it’s a fascinating opening question. and if somebody says, i don’t have anything, well, then that tells him something too,

 

donny shimamoto  34:00

that would worry me a lot more. yeah, yeah. we all have

 

ron baker  34:04

something that we believe in that is probably somewhat out there, whether it’s a conspiracy theory or whatever. we’re human, we’re subject to flaws.

 

amy welch  34:17

extends to superstitions, because i wouldn’t know what to say, um, that it’s bad luck to step on a crack. i’m not sure,

 

ron baker  34:23

yeah, yeah, but there’s no 13th floor

 

amy welch  34:26

goes over shelter,

 

ron baker  34:30

like go to vegas. i don’t think there’s many 13th floors in the casino, because it’s just bad luck.

 

amy welch  34:37

i think that’s so funny, though we really think about critically. if there’s a 13th floor, it’s just not labeled 13.

 

ron baker  34:45

it’s true. you know, there’s a great there’s a great story about a rabbi got two people in front of him, and they’re arguing, and the first guy makes his case, and the rabbi looks at him and says, you’re right, and then the second guy makes his case, and. rabbi’s listening, and he finishes, and he says, you’re right. and his wife standing next to him, the rabbi’s wife, and she says, honey, they both can’t be right. and he says, you’re right. you know, levity negates gravity. it really does. if a conversation is getting too intense. throw some humor in there, and you’ll guess one thing that we all bond over as humans. i mean, think about what a comedian is doing. he’s trying to choke you, literally trying to choke you so you lose your breath and you know you you’re gagging because your humor is uncontrollable. it’s, it’s the purest form of confession.

 

brian tankersley  35:47

but yeah, if you think about it, a comedian is really, they’re really the ultimate storyteller, because they they can tell you things about yourself that you don’t want to hear, and you laugh at it, and you and you leave having learned something about yourself and them and sometimes all the people around you, you know. and as long as you let yourself laugh, you know, if, if you’re going to say something, may offend them. guess what? somebody else is going to say something, it may offend you, just don’t get offended it. so if you decide that you’re not going to get offended, okay, great, let’s just go.

 

ron baker  36:22

you guys know john garrett right, stand up, cpa comedian, him and greg kite are about the only two i can think of. i know there’s a few more, i think. but anyway, john garrett told me something very interesting at a conference where he spoke and got created some public blow back for some of his comments. and he said, when we were talking about it, he said the person wasn’t offended by me. they were offended because the rest of the audience laughed. and i thought that was an incredibly insightful comment that they weren’t necessarily mad at him, but because everybody else laughed and they didn’t,

 

brian tankersley  37:06

but, but, you know, there are different kinds of laughs too. you know, there’s maybe, maybe they were laugh laughed, and maybe where they live, the way they laughed is the uncomfortable laugh, like, okay, you know, as opposed right, as opposed to, i’m actually laughing out loud, because this is funny, you know, it i think again, i think, i think we have to go out there and we have to put on our kevlar and just understand that people are going to say things that are going to hurt our feelings. and that’s the cost of living in a free society where you can, you can speak your mind, is that you now discuss it and you, you know, people may disagree with you, but they want to know why, because they want to connect with you. you know is, is that so awful

 

donny shimamoto  37:55

that’s verging into a whole nother topic? but i, but i do agree with you on that, because that’s one of the things. when i look at the free speech, we talk about it all the time, but a lot of times, what we see in these political conversations is that free speech is not fully allowed. and i always find it interesting, for example, that and i can’t think of their name, the ones that are always for civil rights. and they, they actually defended, was it the neo nazis in the us? because, yes,

 

brian tankersley  38:30

the ace the aclu. thank you. aclu defended the nazis in 19 in the 1970s because they wanted to march in the town of skokie, illinois, where a lot of where a lot of holocaust survivors live, you know. and again, it’s that’s that offends me, you know. but i, i think at the point we tell people, other people, what they have to think, and at the point we don’t allow them to say something, then we just create. you know, we’re all in this together, and as soon as we put those walls up, you know, of well, you’re this, and i’m that, and you know, you know you’ve got this and i’m this. you know, the more walls we put up, the more we forget that we are all in this together, and we all have to get along and isn’t it a lot more fun when you get along with people, even if you don’t agree with them on everything, if you can just talk to them and you can laugh about something. i mean, it’s, it’s just, it’s amazing to me.

 

amy welch  39:36

i did find there were a few tips that i found as far as trying to either start that conversation or make it as comfortable as possible. and one of the things that they suggested was making sure that it said, set the stage, but it’s basically making sure that you’re not in a situation where either you or the anybody that you’re trying to engage with is in a stressful. situation, or is in a kind of a hurried situation, because anything like that kind of prohibits them from engaging more fully, and they’re already kind of at a high stress alert and don’t necessarily want to continue a conversation that may trigger some of their trauma points. so that was one of the things, and one of the things that we’ve already talked about was affirmation, or making sure that you show that person respect, so that they know i respect you and i respect your opinions, and i want to learn from you. that kind of opens it up a little bit more. and then what we all learn in basic communication, as far as making direct eye contact, having an open posture, making sure that person knows that you’re open to receiving what they’re trying to communicate to you and with you, check your assumptions. try not to assume anything. of course, we already know what they say about assuming and then if they tell you something that they believe in, explore that to the depth of what’s the essential nugget in their belief there? what is it that they their core belief that is attached to that and not what extraneous thing am i attaching to it because of my background or my beliefs? and then lastly, is what we’ve already said, which is, seek to understand and not to persuade as long as you’re not going into it being like, i’m going to change this person’s mind and i’m going to make them believe my way. and you understand, no, that’s never going to happen, but at least we can learn from each other, then that’s, uh, that creates a better dialog.

 

ron baker  41:36

and i like that a lot. i you know, i like, i love the line, and i don’t know who said this, but argue with conviction. listen as if you were wrong.

 

brian tankersley  41:47

you know, one of the things it just says an example, one of the things that came out of my conversation with donnie, we started discussing our families and some attributes that our families have, and there was a commonality that we discussed, and i’m not going to share it, because it’s not mine to share, but it’s a, you know, we, we were able to connect on that related topic because we started the conversation and we try, we were, we were just trying to, trying to just talk to each other and pass the time. and, you know, i, i have a new respect for donnie, knowing what i know now from that conversation, because there’s a bigger why, and there’s a sacrifice that he’s made, sacrifices that he’s made in his life that i never understood before. and i, i don’t know it’s a lot of the people we hang out with are pretty doggone amazing. and, you know, i don’t have to agree on everything, but there’s always something that you can find about somebody that’s actually pretty interesting and pretty amazing that they’ve done in their life. and so it’s, i don’t know. i think we, i think we, we spend so much time worrying about what somebody is not instead of worrying about what they are. and first,

 

donny shimamoto  43:11

thank you, brian. and likewise, to you. but one of the things i want to point out from that was it’s interesting because we started the conversation effectively on something that we disagree on, and ended up finding this commonality at the end. so there, there was that bridge that occurred, but it never would have happened if we didn’t have start off with the conversation.

 

brian tankersley  43:31

not only that, i don’t think it’s a good look when you can’t talk to the people next to you, you know. i don’t think it’s a good look for anybody you know. i don’t know,

 

ron baker  43:42

and plus, do we learn anything when we’re talking only to people who we agree with? i learned the most from people i disagree with or throw an idea out that i’ve never heard before or never thought about before. those are the people that have really ended up changing my mind. it didn’t happen that in a dinner conference. i mean, if you can change a mind in an hour, it’s not much of a mind, but you might have put a chink in the armor and made me think about it and go research it deeper. and ultimately, yeah, i see that point of view. now, i never saw that before. and those are magical moments. i mean, those, those are human moments, and i don’t want to give that up. and that’s what free speech enables us. you know, we the test of free speech is, you know, not listening to what you want to hear, but listening to the stuff you don’t want to hear, like the skokie march, which, by the way, didn’t take place after all that

 

brian tankersley  44:43

it was mocked in those blues brothers, true. it was the mocking in the booze brothers was absolutely epic. anyway, that movie one of the only, only non offensive places you’re going to see nazis in. a in a movie, because the blues brothers try to run them over with their car, you know, but it’s, i don’t know, i think there’s something to laugh at on everything and, you know, i it’s, we live in a great country, you know, in that group that we were, that group that you and i were at, donnie and ron used to be, remember that group and amy, i hope to see you there someday. is there a lot of really interesting people that have done crazy things in their lives, and they’re just cool. and the cool thing is that you can, you know, if you don’t have that conversation, if you just sit there and talk about the weather, and, no, i like those shoes, you know, it’s you’re never going to get to that point.

 

ron baker  45:44

and that’s a very diverse group politically as well. so yeah,

 

donny shimamoto  45:49

we’ve covered a lot. i think we heard some really great advice for everyone. just or to wrap up, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, and we’ll go in the same order as the intros. amy, how should someone get in touch with you if they want to talk to you

 

amy welch  46:03

some more? i am on linkedin, and my email address is amy@enterprise.us

 

ron baker  46:10

ron. people can find me at threshold now.com, and you can email me at ron at threshold now.com.

 

donny shimamoto  46:20

thank you, brian

 

brian tankersley  46:21

and i’m bft, cpa on most of the socials, and you can reach me, brian at b, r, i a n at b, f t, cpa.com,

 

donny shimamoto  46:31

thank you all! love this conversation, and for all of you listening, thanks for joining us again for another episode of transformation talks.

posted on march 27, 2025