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the disruptors
with liz farr
back in 2013, before cas became part of the accounting vernacular, penny breslin and damien greathead taught roomfuls of accountants how to do what breslin called bookkeeping and back office support, or bos.
“we had 200 accountants sitting in the room wanting to know how to grow this part of their business,” greathead recalls.
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cloud-based accounting tools like xero and quickbooks online were just entering the u.s. market, and the two recognized an opportunity for firms.
out of that seminar emerged a book, which was recently updated to create the current handbook, it’s not just the numbers [full disclosure: liz farr served as editor].
the handbook’s title reflects a fundamental truth about client relationships that many accountants overlook. as greathead explains, “it’s about what your client wants. and more often than not, the client doesn’t care about the numbers. the client cares about the story that sits underneath the numbers.”
as breslin clarifies, this handbook’s bos process isn’t the same as cas. “cas is what you do with the client; cas is where you end up if you choose to be that consultative advisory person. that’s the result.” the back office support process is how you make that happen in your firm.
the handbook walks readers through an 11-step bos process to transform their accounting practices. “the book is not about debits and credits,” breslin explains. “it’s about how you manage those debits and credits and then communicate their value back to your client.”
in order, the 11 steps are:
- what do you want to do
- build your team
- identify ideal clients
- select appropriate technology
- establish procedures
- develop pricing strategies
- meet with clients
- the bookkeeping manager starts the work
- establish communication protocols
- ensure security measures
- create client operations manuals
both breslin and greathead emphasize that the first step – determining what you want to do – is the most crucial step. “where do people go wrong? it’s deciding not being clear about what they’re not going to do,” says greathead. this simple question has profound implications for everything that follows – the team you hire, the clients you serve, the tech you use, and how you structure your services.
the second step – building a team – is also crucial to this process. “you have to first find out what you want to do and then find the team that wants to work with you on it,” breslin explains. building specialized teams to handle each piece of the work also leads to “real ownership and real job satisfaction,” according to greathead.
breslin introduces the concept of the “little black dress of technology”—a core set of versatile applications that can be “accessorized” based on specific needs. this approach to technology helps prevent inefficiencies from supporting too many different systems. “this didn’t happen without cloud-based systems, without data integration,” says breslin. “the technology is a team player, too.”
standardized processes eliminate the confusion that often arises when each partner has a favored approach. clear communication across all levels is essential to maintaining efficiencies, as breslin explains: “when you’re all communicating, you’re all on the same page, you’re all aware of what the end game is… they’re much better at sharing the information, much better at helping each other track the changes and updates.”
looking ahead, greathead predicts “a real separation within accounting” between technology-driven services for less complex needs and higher-value advisory relationships with a smaller client pool but delivering significantly more comprehensive services. breslin emphasizes the importance of humanity in an ai-powered future: “the thing that’s going to distinguish you from ai is the human element and context that you can bring to the relationship with the client. you can use the ai to get you up on that diving board, but your humaneness and your contextual understanding when you dive off that board, that’s going to make it a perfect dive.”
13 key takeaways
- clients don’t recognize a good tax return but value it when their accountant helps them understand what the numbers mean for their business.
- providing timely information instead of bookkeeping completed months later provides business owners with actionable information clients can use to move their businesses forward.
- hire people who align with your vision and want to do the work you’re offering.
- select clients who match your strengths and tech stack. don’t chase every opportunity.
- setting up standard procedures for the work shortens the learning curve when a new team member is hired.
- address scope creep by ensuring every team member understands client agreements and feels empowered to redirect off-scope requests.
- when you sell your firm, standard procedures mean you’re not selling the customer list but the details on how to work with individual customers and their history. these details increase the likelihood that the buyer will keep the customer, which is better for everyone.
- when you add a new piece of technology as a team member, you need to examine the entire process to determine what needs to be changed.
- when identifying possible clients to introduce to bos services, seek out the ones with similar businesses so you can use the same tech stack for all of them.
- test new services with a few clients first. don’t start with the most difficult clients.
- establish strategic relationships with other firms to send them work that is outside your scope. instead of trying to learn a new gl like netsuite, send those customers to someone who’s an expert in that gl.
- your next hire might not be an accountant or a bookkeeper, but instead, someone responsible for ensuring the apps are connected, they’re up to date, and the client uses them appropriately. it should not be the role of highly paid professionals to answer questions about passwords or broken connections.
- productivity degrades when you support four or five apps with similar functions.
more about penny breslin
penny breslin founded moneypenny, a consulting firm specializing in helping accounting firms and other businesses embrace the power of technology to simplify their operations and increase their profit margins. drawing on her years of experience and her knowledge of what it takes to run a successful business, breslin oversees the development of back-office processes for her client firms. from the initial evaluation of the firm’s workflow to technology selection to assisting in onboarding the firm’s clients, breslin works with her clients to maximize the benefits of a paperless and cloud-based firm. she has been recognized by worldwide who’s who for showing dedication, leadership, and excellence in providing quality consulting services to an international clientele of cpa firms and other businesses. breslin holds an mba in global management and is a member of the intuit pro-advisor group, is a xero certified advisor, a member of the wave pro network, and a freshbooks consultant. she has also co-authored the book, “cfo services for the accounting firm: how to start.” a firm believer in being able to work from anywhere, you’ll often find breslin running her business on the beach after a morning surf session. she’s also an avid supporter of meals on wheels and oxfam.
more about damien greathead
damien greathead has spent his entire career at the intersection of accounting and innovation. from advising firms on everything from sales and marketing to tech stacks and succession planning to building and leading go-to-market teams in some of the industry’s most recognized tech companies—greathead knows what makes the accounting profession tick. he helped launch and grow receipt bank (now dext) in north america and later led the accountants channel at intuit australia. these days, he’s a fractional sales and marketing director for a range of forward-thinking accounting and tech companies—including moneypenny llc—helping them sharpen their sales, marketing, and product strategies to better support accounting firms and their clients.
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
liz farr
welcome to accounting disruptor conversations. i’m your host. liz farr from 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间, and we have a special treat for you today. my guests today are penny breslin and damien greathead. penny is the founder of moneypenny and damien has worked with the accounting profession for over 20 years, including time at the 2020 group, receiptbank, which is now dext, and intuit. and together, penny and damien host the it’s not just the numbers podcast, and they are co authors of the book, it’s not just the numbers. welcome to the podcast. damien and penny, how are you guys today?
penny breslin
great. liz, how are you
liz farr
i’m great as always, always good.
penny breslin
and you forgot, you forgot to mention who the editor of the book was for us.
liz farr
oh, wow, i don’t like to toot my own horn, but if
penny breslin
it wasn’t for you. liz, gotten through it all, so
damien greathead
i know made sense of a lot of i’m not going to call it chicken scratch, but made brought it all together for for that book.
penny breslin
so just like a rug brings a room together.
liz farr
well, thank thank you for your kind words. now we’re going to be mostly talking about this book. it came out a little while ago, and i can’t believe that we haven’t had an episode talking about it until today. but could you tell listeners how this book came to be written?
damien greathead
i’ll answer this one i had. i had to drag it out of penny breslin, kicking and screaming. so many years ago, penny and i ran a program in santa monica. i think it was 2013, 2014 and it was all about this idea of accounting firms that want to grow, accounting firms that want to grow through bookkeeping. the way for them to do that is to systemize and standardize bookkeeping. so that was in 2013 or so xero was coming into into the united states. quickbooks online was was present, and so the first cloud, cloud tools were coming into the market, and the first concept of this api and an integrated workflow had had come to the united states for the first time. and penny was very much at the forefront of this. and the reason why, from a process and standardization thing, was because of her outsourcing background, so she can go into that a little bit in a little bit more detail afterwards. but essentially, we had 200 accountants sitting in the room wanting to know how to grow this part of their business. and after that success, we realize that are let’s put this. let’s put this into a book so that we can get it out to more accounting firms, because we think accounting firms are going to want to grow this aspect of their business. lo and behold, we called it bookkeeping and back office back office support and back office processing, etc. this was well before cas, client accounting services, client accounting and advisory services had ever come to the market. so that’s, that was the program that we ran. i then pushed penny to write the book, and then the first version of it was, was relevant, i think, to that, that cloud accounting 1.0 but sort of as we saw in around 2018, 2019, technology just so quickly advances, we realized we had to update the book, and so that’s when we focused on bringing it’s not just the numbers to this accounting, cas 2.0 type of space, and we rewrote the book and brought yourself in liz to help us make sure that it’s a proper book versus the first version that we self published. so that was the genesis of the book, knowing penny’s background, knowing her expertise, but also seeing how much accountants wanted this content back in 2013 in that, in that, i don’t know. i think it might have been a hilton garden in santa monica, or hilton santa monica, where we had those accountants learning about how to standardize the bookkeeping process. so that’s how i remember it, penny, i’m not sure about you.
penny breslin
oh, it’s pretty much what i remember. i remember standing up and telling them, here’s the tech stack? and them going, what? what’s a tech stack? yeah, in 2013 and then in 2019 you know, i opened this book with a. yeah, there’s a thing called ai, and it’s your future. you better get on board. and so, i guess, yeah, a little early on some stuff, but it eventually is going to get there. you know, somebody’s got to pay attention to what’s out there and what’s the potential for the future, you know. and a lot of lot of accountants are busy running their accounting company, you know, plus working in their accounting company. so sometimes you just need somebody who can be outside a little bit, who can say, hey, this is coming down the pike. you need to be aware of it, and you need to start thinking about it. that’s kind of where i think the book is at. you know the first one definitely, because that was 2013 and in 2014 when we had the the meeting in santa monica, and i think even damien you, you pulled me aside, said, what’s a tech stack you talking about? because it was relatively new. it was very, very new. gusto wasn’t called gusto back then. that’s how new it was. so and ai has just un unbelievably, the speed of that change versus the speed of the app stack changing. it’s it’s phenomenal how fast it’s changing. and anything we have to say here about ai, it’s probably going to be either obsolete or updated by the time this gets released. and that’s just the way it goes.
liz farr
that’s how fast it runs. now it does now. now the name of the book is, it’s not just the numbers. where did that come from?
penny breslin
we’ll take that one. damien. first of all, i’m not an accountant or a bookkeeper, and i sucked at math at school, and i still need to calculate it on my fingers to add so it’s how did i get to be able to run an accounting company without, you know, having that function i’m not capable of doing a tax return, and you sure as hell don’t want me do your bookkeeping. i’m a bit of a squirrel. so, so part of it was i had to manage an accounting company, and the accountants were very competent i found at doing the work that they were trained to do. in fact, they’re wonderful at it, but they didn’t necessarily have the training to manage teams, manage people, manage the flow of the work. so the book is not about debits and credits. it’s about how you manage those debits and credits and then communicate their value back to your client. so it’s it’s the part of the firm, the part of the business, the part of the company that has nothing to do with debits and credits, but it makes it happen in a timely fashion. yeah, and that’s what it’s about. it’s not about the numbers. it’s about the other stuff that unfortunately have to do.
damien greathead
and also, i would say that it’s it’s not it’s about what your client wants. and more often than not, it the client doesn’t care about the numbers. the client cares about the story that sits underneath the numbers. you’ve absolutely got to get the numbers right, and you’ve got to get them done in a very timely manner. but your client wouldn’t know. wouldn’t know a good tax return if it hit him in the head. your client wouldn’t know a good set of books. isn’t reading the footnotes, etc, but they they understand when their accountant, when their advisor, sits with them and helps them understand the numbers. so that’s that’s very much the aspect of it. i think a lot of accountants get bogged down in defining good work through great tax returns. but our clients don’t know what a good tax return looks like, but they know when the client, when the accountant sits down and talks through the numbers. so it’s so that that was also the genesis of the title. so rather than it being just about sort of the bookkeeping process, putting that client lens on it, which i think is really important,
penny breslin
and i think to that it was the advent of all of the apps back there, and 2000 and the early 2000s and then the and now ai that i think it’s, it’s been, although i do think this been a generational shift in this, but that the idea that, where would i have the time to talk to a client? yeah. and the thing is, that’s what this stuff does. if you, if you, if you put the it in place, the flow of the work and the consistency of the work in place, then the time is available to talk with the client. but not only that, the information you have to discuss with them is relative to today, not what happened to them three or four months ago or even a year ago. so it’s utilizing technology along with people to present opportunities to your client, ways that you can help them beyond just a close, monthly close or annual tax return, because there is so much more information in there that every business owner needs. i guess that’s kind of why i did it, because i know i need it,
liz farr
yeah, yeah. you know, when i was working with the material, i felt like it was all the things that the firms i worked at weren’t doing and weren’t paying attention to, you know, they were focused on getting the numbers right, but not on building the right team or choosing the right clients or figuring out what to do or common processes, or even really the technology. so this was really everything that the firms i worked at were not doing,
penny breslin
but i think too that, you know, it’s also, like damien said a bit ago, putting the client up there, you know, yes, well, why are we in business in the first place? it’s to help our clients, right? so, yes, they come to accountants. and you know, when i do have some clients. people call me all the time because they think we’re accountants, but so i hear a lot of horror stories, and then i think i know a cpa could help you. it’s not us. we can’t do it while you but so it just, i think that the there’s a lot of value that people who have this mindset, and, and, and i’ve met so many intelligent accountants who, you know, you hear them speak about their clients, and you go, have you talked to the client like this? have you told your client the story of what’s going well, yeah, well, we’re going to get around to that. you know, you have the time now, you have the capacity and to do this if you choose to, because we do start the book out with is this what you want to do? because there are other aspects of running an accounting firm that requires somebody who is if they’re really dedicated, i just want to do my tax returns, leave the rest and there are people like that, then more power to them. let’s give them the space and the accouterments they need to make them focus on what it is that they like to do and they like to do well. so that’s the other aspect of it, is discover what you want to do and then take this, these steps, because the universal on building a business and follow them to focus on what it is you want to do. you may not be the person who talks to the client, because that’s not what you like to do. you might like things that you might just enjoy doing a tax return and understanding the effects of that return and the in the analysis the business, but you don’t necessarily want to be the communicator of it. nothing wrong with that. you can find somebody who can do that, just finding out what you want to do, building a plan and an idea of how to get there. and then, here are the steps to follow as you want to grow that whatever it is that you want to do
liz farr
right now, this book uses an acronym, b, o, s, back office services that a lot of accountants and bookkeepers might not have heard before. what is this? is this the same as cas? it’s but
penny breslin
no cas is cas is what you do with the client, cas is where you end up, if you choose to be that consultive advisory person, that’s the result. is cas. this is how do you allow it to happen? because there are so many pitfalls in setting up a cas. applicate office. start with just you already have an existing accounting firm that where half the people are stuck in the old way of doing things, fewer and fewer those lot, certainly a lot more before covid. lot of that has changed. but this is the process. you can’t just say, i’m going to be a cas office, and think that the way you’ve been doing business with just doing tax returns and bookkeeping four months out of the year when you’re not too busy doing tax returns, that you can’t turn that into a cas office if you don’t stop from scratch and and look at what do you want to do? who do you want to do it with, in your office, in your who your team players? that includes your technologies, they’re a team player too. then what clients you want to work with? yeah, if you don’t get those things set up first, then you’re just taking here’s what we used to do. now. we’re going to put cas on our website, and you know, if a client wants to do some consulting now, that’s cas. no, that’s not now. and i think that’s
damien greathead
what a lot of firms the trap that a lot of firms fell into that they were they did cas eight months of the year, and then everything stopped. and also they would do it that for all intents and purposes, they were and still are doing after the fact bookkeeping. what we were seeing is, we’re seeing a lot of firms that, come tax season, that bookkeeping just got paused, whereas the true value of cas is in the timeliness of in the information and the data that sits within there, and understanding that and a lot of engagements fell over february 1, when the the team got redeployed to tax season. so how does the how do those back office processes continue? how does the data get processed continue to get processed in a timely manner, so that the that particular service line doesn’t fall over,
liz farr
right? so it sounds like you really need a dedicated team that is not going to be pulled away to do tax returns or to be a warm body on an audit?
penny breslin
absolutely. yeah, that’s for sure. and i think that you have to also utilize the technology. this isn’t this didn’t happen without technology. this did not happen without cloud based systems, without data that it can be integrated between different dissociate data points where you can’t pull all the information together. this doesn’t happen without that part of the team that app or slash now ai agent a prompt that’s going to allow you to be able to do this in a functional manner. one of the things is, last year, got to do a discussion with one of my us based employees, and i said, you know, based on the work that you’re doing with these clients, what do you think your maximum capability would be. and she goes, oh, i could only handle about four or five per month at this level and billing her out at a pretty nice clip, you know, for what she’s doing. and so, okay, so that’s your max. she goes, yeah, beyond that, then the service i give to each of them starts to degrade. mm, however, two years ago, she may have only been able to do five clients like that. it was introducing technology in the apps that have allowed us to expand the number number of businesses she can service at the level that we’re charging them that higher rate, and we have to provide, we have to be available to provide what they want when they want it, not when we’re going to get around to giving it to them. and, yeah, and in they pay a nice price for that, and she can handle seven or eight of them. and so it’s kind of like that’s really interesting. so you really do need a team. you really do, because she has behind her a team of accountants in our office in india who are doing all the bookkeeping work. they are utilizing technology, apps and tools to do that. the client is in a tech stack. and yes, and they all are in the same tech stack. we still. start with that little basic black dress of apps, and they’re all in the same stuff. and then there’s a few little changes depending on but they all tend to be in the same they’re all in the same type of business. we’ve had other companies come to us, and if they’re outside of that type of service based business, we immediately go find somebody else. so you need a real cpa, come we’re going to go find you on because it’s not something i want to deal with, and she doesn’t want to deal with it because they’re mainly inventory heavy. they’re, they’re, they have a lot of, they might have a larger operation. so, yeah, so it’s like, okay, here’s here’s what we want to do. here’s the type of people we want to do with. here’s the tech stack. yeah, she can now do it. she basically can run her own little company sitting out of her house in texas. and she’s been a really interesting experiment for the last four years. to do this with her and and, yeah, it you have to recognize what you want to do and how much you can do and how effective you can be. and i loved it when she said at that point, if i went to that many companies, my service levels would degrade with all of them across the board.
damien greathead
so i think, i think the other thing that’s interesting as well liz is within, within the firm, within an accounting firm, and this process of in a lot of the cult consulting services that i do, we spend a lot of time with the owners to really understand what it is that they do, what is it that they want to do? what is it that they don’t want to do? but also, the next step, after you sort of get that out of the partners the owners of the firm, is to go through that same process with the team members in the firm. and more often than not, sitting within the team, you’ve got people that love tax or hate tax or love, love aspects of their job and hate other aspects of their job, and obviously hates a very strong word, but that causes them a lot of stress and anxiety and accounting, bookkeeping and tax, two very different parts of the accounting spectrum, still requiring a significant skill set and to your to your original question about is it two separate teams? what we’ve actually found is, when we had this office of generalists, if everyone does a bit of tax, everyone does a bit of payroll, everyone does a bit of bookkeeping, and we sort of level load based on what we need, that’s when we sort of, that’s when we sort of saw the satisfaction levels, not not where they could be or where they should be, but then when we created sort of dedicated teams of here is the bookkeeping team, and they’re just as important as the tax team and just as important as the payroll team, that’s when we started to see real ownership and real job satisfaction happening as a result of very clearly defined expectations and roles and responsibilities, and i think that’s also part of it as well, is taking that next step down to your team and asking your team, what is it that you want to do? because if it’s if it’s not tax, if it’s not tax, can it be cas, and if it’s not bookkeeping, can it be tax, and really building your team that way? so again, just sort of going back to that original question, i think it’s really worthwhile talking to your team to find out what it is that they love doing, and building your pods or your team structure around that based on the needs of your client base.
liz farr
that’s right now, now, as you both have sort of alluded to, this book has an 11 step process for how you build a a bos firm, a bos firm, which i love because it’s so systematic. you know, we accountants like checklists and we like procedures. we like that very much. penny is smiling at me. now, how did these steps and also the precise ordering evolve,
damien greathead
like trial and error? probably
penny breslin
a lot of trial and error. yeah. in fact, one of the things i did on the second one was i moved step two and three around originally. remember when i wrote the first one? i put find the client sec as the second set. first, find out what you want to do, and then go find the clients you want to work with. and after we wrote that, let’s say i wrote that one in 2014 and then, you know, i started moneypenny at the same time. and it was like, oh, i’m switching this around. because all i did was build teams for to do the work for else, you know, to outsource the work to. and i realized that you really had to pay attention to who the team players were first, because you can have an idea of this is what i want to do, and these are the people i want to sell my services to. these the clients i want. and then you go out to your office of people that have been working with you all along, and then they go, yeah, but that’s not what we want to do. or like, want to work in teams, so you have to first find out what you want to do and then find the team that wants to work with you on it. so you have to kind of be your own little visionary and salesman. there a salesperson, and then, and in doing that, you’re also discovering which apps are going to fill the gaps and and make this flow. then pick the clients that you already added, the ones you already have. so that’s what i did. it’s the only thing i really reversed. but yeah, it’s, i mean, it is a step by step process. you can’t, you can’t jump into cas if you don’t even know if that’s what you want to do. you can’t just put that name out there and say that’s what you do if it’s not really what you want to do. but
damien greathead
also, you know, saying put to put that label cas out there. i think that’s one of the challenges that that the profession faces. at the moment, everyone’s telling them, cas, cas, cas, every way you look, is cas, but, nope, but, and i think it’s improved significantly in, say, the last sort of 1218, months. but also, what does cas mean to you? like, what does that mean and sort of defining the expectations and the outcomes or the deliverables for clients. because i think a lot of people look at the dollar signs and the revenue potential of cas, but not, not really understanding what what cas means to them as a firm, and what cas means to them as a client. and i think that’s probably something in terms of, again, what’s the order of the book? it’s, probably, it definitely still starts with, just start with what you want to do. but i think there’s an element in there around really defining what it is you’re doing, what it is you’re delivering. and even penny you wrote a blog article on defining your deliverable, and i think that’s that would actually be a new chapter that you’d sort of put in there to say what it is that you’re delivering what, rather than on your website and listing every single service that you’ve ever provided under the sun here is, here is really what we do, and narrowing in on what we do. and i think that’s probably something that that, i think sort of the next iteration, or the next version, or the next book, or whatever would really focus in on is defining what it means to you, because you go to so many conferences, and you talk to different cas practices, and there’s a full spectrum and a full gamut of services that they’re providing. some it is just bookkeeping and financial reporting, which is fine, whereas others go all the way to that fractional cfo and and talking about risk management and optimization and productivity benefits, etc, etc. so i think that’s an area as well, if time again the order, but then also probably doubling down on a couple of sub chapters within the book to make sure that they’re much more relevant and prominent.
liz farr
yeah, well, just so that listeners have an idea what we’re talking about, i’m going to go through the different steps. so step one is, what do you want to do? step two, build a team. step three, clients. step four, technology. step five, procedures. step six, we finally get into pricing. step seven, meet with your client. step eight, the bookkeeping manager starts the work. step nine, communication with the client and your team. 10 is security for you and your client, and the 11th step is the client operations manual. so what steps, or step? what where, where do client firms seem to struggle the most? well, yeah, well, i was gonna say, yeah. i
penny breslin
will say, i will say, you know, what i see is they get a lot of scope creep, and they do that because they didn’t go through those steps. they didn’t involve their team and everything like you does your team when you bring on a new client, is your team aware of what the agreement is of what, what it is you’re expected to do, so that they don’t allow for scope, scope creep. and do they have a methodology that allows them to say, hey, the client asked us to do this. so give them the words and the rights to say to the client, you know, that’s an interesting question. i’m going. have to get back to you on that to be able to say something of instead of saying, yeah, sure, we’ll take care of that for you. and all of a sudden you get scope creep. and it’s probably because somebody who’s six six spaces from kevin bacon is always was that what that word is, six degrees of kevin bacon down the hall from you doesn’t know what it is that the client’s ultimate goal is, because you didn’t involve them as a team player, because maybe they’re just the bookkeeper or they’re just the admin person, so everybody on the team has to be a part of it. and i find that a lot of times when we’ll get we’ll get and i okay, this is going to be probably not a nice thing to say, but i’ll say it anyways. we will get people who will come to us accounting firms and say, you know, we’ve got to do clean up all these books, because they’ve taken on a new client who the previous accountant didn’t handle well, and then they’ve got a mess to clean up and and it’s just this. you can get into a file like that, and you’ve seen like, four or five different methodologies and processes to do the same type of work, and you know, that’s how many people touch the file. so there’s no consistency. you find that there’s no consistency on how they look at the file. there’s no consistency on how they approach the file. there’s no consistency on cleaning it up. even to this day, people will come to us, and the first thing my team will say is, after they look at all the files ago, would you be interested in allowing us to at least standardize the chart of accounts and put numbers on them? and they’ll go, well, the client, the client doesn’t really need the numbers, no, but it’s going to make it easier. but we do everything else down the line. this one little thing that’ll take us one day to do will make everything go faster. just change
damien greathead
or it’s, well, we’ve been meaning to we’ve been meaning to do that, but we just don’t have the time to do it. we’ve never got round to it. and so i think penny talking about scope creep, i think sort of building on what penny saying there is actually the standardization and process. and i remember this. i did a brief stint, stint in a tax firm, an accounting firm, before i realized i was a very bad accountant, tax preparer. but basically the tax tax return would be prepared depending on who the partner was. so again, the outcome was all the same, but all of the little steps in between were similar, but different as a result of the partner and how they liked things prepared. and so for me as a as the preparer, i was sort of depending on, oh, hang on, okay. i’m this is liz client. i’ve got to do it this way. penny likes her stuff this way. and the same thing within, within the cas or bookkeeping sort of space, the lack of standardization, the lack of process, and even take out, take out, take out, the actual steps associated with putting a set of books together or putting a tax return together. but think about client onboarding and the discovery process. and again, same type of thing is the when, when a client would come in, depending on who the partner was. there were two very different discovery experiences and so or very different onboarding experiences and very different intake experiences, very different communication experiences. some some loved email, some never replied to anything, some preferred text message. so that whole we sort of, we responded to what the client wanted, rather than setting up our own internal processes. and this is the way we do it here. so i think if that’s that’s where i see a big stumbling block, and i think that probably leads to scope creep, and leads to those types of things happening as well, because we haven’t really followed a consistent process about how a client comes into our business, or how we do the work once the client is in the business,
penny breslin
right? once you do standardizing, you can build templates on how you track that information. it’s easy when something different is asked by the client. okay, maybe they asked the bookkeeper, maybe they asked somebody, an admin. they didn’t ask whoever is the account manager, and that they’ve been get but they’ve been given those people and given the space to say, you know, that’s an interesting question, and i know the right person to answer that for you, and i’m going to get that information over to them, and they’ll be contacting you, so they know that that’s what they can do. they have time to document it and hand it off to somebody else. so one of the other things. that i find is that people come to, oh, yeah, we have process and procedures. we’ve got everything procedure. but it was something they wrote five years ago, and it was, it was in a document, and we used to be in a book. but one time, one time, oh, my god, this was long, long time ago. this is probably about 2010 and i was in a place i had never been in oak in florida, in the middle of state, was really hot and muggy and but they trotted out these d ring binders of, here’s our client’s procedures, and i’m looking at them going, they got dust on them. i mean, does anybody read them? no, no. nobody looks them. so i think we got them done. but i think that also that’s another thing that you could validate and say, i didn’t get around to it before, but with the tools and the technology out there, and if you have given people the space to do it, that those procedures keep get updated. and it’s even i have to struggle with that. i mean, it’s, it’s hard. everybody’s in my company is is forced to do it, but we check the analytics to make sure they’ve actually done it. so, i mean, you just it’s, it’s a very difficult thing. and i think working in teams, when you’re all communicating, you’re all on the same page, you’re all aware, everybody’s aware of what the end game is. so we’re all on the same page. then, then they’re much better at sharing the information, much better at co helping each other, track the changes and updates and clients and making sure that there isn’t scope creep, there’s just a lot more openness about it. and the tools, the technology tools, are there to allow it to be shared in a very confined permissions based manner. there’s no reason not to. the only thing that’s still holding them up is i just don’t have time, and that is i find because i get it from my clients, i’ve actually had them say, you know, could you ladies spend a little less time on organizing their day and just get to work, because i noticed that they spend a few minutes, well, yeah, every one of them spends a few minutes in the beginning of the morning sitting down and look at what she’s got to do for the day before she just kicks in and starts working on stuff. but sure, if you don’t want me to have them do that, i’ll just have them start where they left off yesterday and not see if anything changed in the meantime. see what happens then. but if they’re not given the time, they won’t do it. and yet, information is coming at us so fast, and it’s coming at us from so many different directions. everybody needs a little bit of buffer to go from one task to the other, or to start each day, because something might have changed in the interim. so just space, the team, the team methodology gives you space, and it gives you a comfortability factor. and i think that making sure that you’re all cooperating will is better at getting your procedures done and then documenting the procedures has a another benefit, and that is one. the learning curve when you have to bring somebody else, new in is a lot less because everybody’s done it, doing it the same way, and everybody’s in agreement, and because they’re all a team, when they somebody has a new idea that can do things better, they can bring it up, and they can agree, okay, we’re gonna have one way of doing this. we’re now going to do it this way, so the learning curve is less. and then also, if you ever want to sell your business, you’re not just selling the customer list, you’re selling the abcd on how to deal with that customer and the history of that customer, this is a good chance that whoever’s buying is going to be able to keep the customer, and that’s better for everybody all around
liz farr
that’s right, yeah. and having standard procedures, i will just say, is so important. that’s one of the really good things that one of the firms i was at did, we got together when we went paperless for tax, and set out exactly what our work papers were going to look like and how we were going to do things, even down to the colors of the stamps and the colors every
penny breslin
that blew me away. liz, like, i mean, you’d go into an office and if you like, 20 different cpas working, and they all had their own floor mats and their own colors and stuff. like, yeah, oh my god. what a drag you. but
liz farr
yeah, and we had a standard excel workbook that we used for the business returns. and yes, it was a little bit of extra work for the preparer, but that front loading the information made reviewing it just a piece of cake.
penny breslin
so i think that, i think you, i think the the other thing you have to do is, when you, when you’re putting technology in as a team member, is you have to remember, okay, the way we did it before we use this app now, has to be reviewed, because putting a piece of technology into the flow means you’re going to actually approach it differently, and you have to change the whole process from start to finish. and also you have to have the if you can’t even put in an app, you can’t even put in technology, you can’t put in a new service, if you don’t have detailed out what you’re already doing right now, because how do you know where it’s going to fit and otherwise, what it does, it just gets thrown on top. it’s stack of of things. i’ll get around to that. we’re going to do that. let’s just put it out there. we’re going to be doing that. we’re going to be a cas office. we’re going to be we’re going to do, we’re going to specialize in this type of vertical. you just you, if you don’t figure out how to methodically break everything down and go back to step one and figure out where all those pieces are going to fit, because everything just got changed. you’re just going to have a stack of yeah, we’ll get around to it. yeah,
liz farr
that’s right. now, what would you say are the most important steps to get right, even though, if you get one step wrong, the whole thing breaks
penny breslin
damian?
damien greathead
look, i think, actually, i think it’s probably step one, and step one sort of defining, so what do you want to do, and really defining what you want to do, and that actually involves defining what you don’t want to do. and i think that’s probably where i see a lot of firms go wrong, is they try to be everything to everyone, whereas the most successful firms in this space have been very focused and very narrow, whether whether that’s an industry vertical, whether that’s a very specialized service offering. so i think where, where do people go wrong? it’s deciding not being clear about what they’re not going to do. so what is it that we are not going to do? and if it’s a critical part of the sort of the financial accounting spectrum, then how are we going to get it done for our clients? because that’s the important part. so who are we going to partner with? so i’ve seen a lot of firms that are that love tax, and that’s that’s all they do, high end tax and high end net worth individuals and tax. but those clients is those clients businesses still need the back office support, so they then partner with either moneypenny, a firm like an outsourcing firm, like moneypenny, or alternatively, firm that’s species works specifically in the space, or a bookkeeping firm, alternatively accounting firms that want to just do cas, but they know their clients need tax, and it’s not just this referral, yeah, we’ll refer you to three or four different accountants and see which one that you actually like. it’s a real strategic partnership and strategic relationship with those providers. so there’s, there’s actually a great, well, the diagram is not great, because i just don’t think we’re very good visual creating the visual, but it, but it really is. it’s sort of, what are the core aspects of your clients businesses that need to get done? what are you going to take control of and then, if you’re if you don’t want it, how are you going to facilitate it getting done? how are you going to act as the quarterback? to use that sports analogy to get this done and be much more strategic about it, rather than just this, let me refer you to three or four tax preparers, or let me refer you to three or four financial planners, and you choose which one it is. you very much own the relationship. so it’s about, how do we deliver and excel at what we are experts at, but then make sure that the rest is delivered for our clients as well. and penny, you’ve got a good example of one of the firms that you work with, i think, out of illinois, and she doesn’t want to do tax, and she doesn’t want to do bookkeeping, but she wants to do the fractional cfo. but she knows that she
penny breslin
so we do her bookkeeping. yeah, we do the bookkeeping. she does all the client support fractional cfo stuff. and then we hooked her up with a cpa who doesn’t want to do bookkeeping, doesn’t want to do cas, just wants to do tax returns. and, yeah, there was a little vetting going on. you have, i think you use that word strategic very well. it has to be a strategic. relationship you have to be able to trust. and i say that because i have recommended people and been fully disappointed on the recommendations like, oh, i thought you were a much cooler person than that dick. no, but sorry about that. liz, so you know, i it’s got to be strategic. and yeah, you’re right. you don’t have to be everything to everybody, and there’s no that doesn’t mean that eventually you can’t do all that stuff. but don’t go out of the gate thinking you’re gonna just do it all the it’s it. this is a step by step process. try it with one client, see how it works. then try it again with another client, and the similar type of client, but the same and not
damien greathead
your biggest client, not your most difficult client, yeah. look, look for the clients where there’s the similarities that almost simplicity of process. cut your teeth there versus sort of a lot of folks actually say, you know what, i’ve got a great client for this. they’ve they’re frustrated with their internal accounting team, so we’ll go on out. and i’m just like, no, no, why don’t we just, why don’t we just start small and grow and penny’s point there. look for commonality in your clients that this is going to work for that’s a big mistake that i’ve seen as well, is is accounting firms trying to do this for the restaurant client here, the doctor’s office over here, the manufacturer over there, doesn’t work. it doesn’t work because you’ve got five different little black dresses as penny calls them, or five different tech stacks that you’ve got to learn, maintain, be certified in, and that that becomes a real challenge for an accounting firm.
penny breslin
it’s hard. it’s hard because if somebody comes at you and it’s like it looks like it’s a great opportunity, but they’re using netsuite, and that’s not in our wheelhouse, and it could be a big client to what to what event will it take over more time than you can ever give to any of your other clients. i mean, so having a strategic relationship with other firms or centers of influence that your uh clients may need that’s going to be part of your team. if this is a team effort. i mean, like i said, you megan, she can do seven, seven. she can go seven of those a month. well, we’re charging our highest rate to and she is working her butt off. but you know, it’s a lot. there’s a lot of when you get into this level of advisory work, you spend a lot of time with your clients, and you have the clients spending a lot of time up in here.
damien greathead
and i will say as well, and penny will never say this, because she’s a shocking marketer, but strategic partnership, like looking at a company like moneypenny, they work with more than 290 apps, large majority of those in the accounting, practice, management, tax, most, that’s the majority of those. so, so when the when that netsuite client does come in. if you’ve got a strategic partner that knows how to work in netsuite, you can say yes to them because because of that relationship. and so that’s the other way in which you can think about strategic partnerships. it might be the firm down the road, but it could also be someone like moneypenny, where you can where you’re able to, well, hang on the clients on on netsuite, they use these apps. yep, we can build a team that sits around that with those expertise, versus the accounting firm thinking, oh shit, i’ve got to now go out and try and learn this, or try and make this work, or dedicate resources to it. so just another way in which firms can think, think about strategic partnerships and strategic relationships to grow their business. i don’t know any accounting firm in australia or the united states or canada that’s working with 290 odd apps across accounting, tax, bookkeeping, payroll, workflow, and then obviously that you sort of your office management, management app. so that’s where partnership can really work as well to deliver on what the client needs.
liz farr
yeah, yeah. now, something i want to delve into, this just a little bit penny mentioned the little black dress and and this kind of, kind of ties into, you know, pick out the things that are in your wheelhouse. now what? what do you mean by the little black dress of technology?
penny breslin
you have one, i have one. we all have a black dress.
damien greathead
i don’t have one. you
penny breslin
have a tuxedo. and you could change the cumber bun, or you can change the tie. oh. change the
damien greathead
new cumberbund, yeah.
penny breslin
well, maybe you want to go without a cumberbund, you know, maybe you want to do a t shirt underneath, or a ruffle shirt. basically, a black dress is something that is a basic cut dress that can be used for a multitude of occasions, depending on how you accessorize it. so i have a basic set of apps that i recommend, that i prefer with. so we would pick one gl. yeah, we might manage bunch of my team might manage a bunch of different types of gls, but when i did this with megan, it was we picked one gl that we were going to work with, and we picked those apps that we knew the majority of businesses were going to need. first of all, we had to get a workflow, our own workflow, because we have to track internally what we’re doing. but so this is the client facing apps would be the general ledger. okay, great. but what do we want? we want to kind of keep the client out of the general ledger as much as possible. so we put we put other apps on top of it, and that’s kind of how i met damien, almost 20 years ago now, on receiptbank, because we needed some kind of expense tracker, because back then you didn’t have as good tools built into the gls to do this, the we needed payroll. we so we picked a payroll company that we liked a lot. we needed a time tracker, and because several of our clients were tracking their employee time and we needed some type of reporting method that would report give us better reports than what we could get out of the gl so we picked fathom at that time. so we had a tech stack, and then that was the base. then if a client needed something special, that’s what we accessorized with. and we as soon as the accessories got to be a bit much you do, what you got to do is you got to clean the closet out and get rid of some stuff. yeah, yeah, right. but what really happens, and what tended to happen, and what i see is happening, is that the apps themselves started taking on other aspects of things. so receiptbank could do more than just expect, track expenses. a payroll company can do more than just payroll. it now can do hr and integrates with maybe a 401, k. so those things were the accessories that we could pull in and we knew we had access to now that required somebody to pay attention to the apps, because they were critical. they were our vendors. we needed to make sure that the clients were utilizing them properly. we need to make sure that everybody on the team was utilizing it properly in the same way, and we needed to make sure that we had a good contact with that vendor, so that we would always get excellent support. and when you’re in the middle of doing somebody’s year end close or when you’re in the middle of doing somebody’s high end tax return to have to then deal with a broken app, not fun. so we had to decide who on the team was going to be the app person who was going to keep that little black dress organized and working and the accessories tied in. so that became a team member that we found we needed more than we needed another bookkeeper. i was
damien greathead
going to say, as you were saying that, and going back to a previous question, liz is what step do people fall over with? i think that’s also another challenge that that folks have is that they think that their next hire is an accountant or a bookkeeper, but actually it might be a technologist. it might be a customer service manager, an administrator that is responsible for making sure that the apps are connected, they’re up to date, the client’s using them. that shouldn’t be the role of the accountant or bookkeeper answering questions about lost passwords or whatever. that shouldn’t be the role of the accountant or bookkeeper. but instead that technologist and one of the firms that i admire from afar is a firm called liveca out of canada. and i think the two partners way back when they first started team of maybe four or five, one of them was a technologist, and the technologist has always the technologist team has always grown as the firm’s grown because they didn’t want their highly paid professionals working on password resets or lizing with the staying up to date with everything. instead, it was a technologist responsibility to what are the latest updates and then disseminate. that to the team, maintaining the connections, onboarding the clients. that was the responsibility of the technologist, and i think that was a really interesting. part of their success is having that very clearly defined role, because without it, a lot of firms fall into the trap of just adding on more and more apps without necessarily identifying what’s working what’s not, and then all of a sudden, you’re supporting four and five different payroll companies. and that’s where, that’s where profitability, or that’s where efficiency and productivity, i think, starts to degrade. i like that term penny, penny, the productivity starts to degrade as a result of having to support four and five apps doing the same or similar function, versus actually no, no where, where going to stick with these two payroll companies, be very specific with them, develop really great relationships with them, and become very efficient with them, so that where we’re maximizing productivity throughout the the entire process, rather than having to stay up to date and certified and experts in four or five different payroll companies as an example.
penny breslin
that’s right. that’s right. see, it’s, here’s, here’s a hint, if anybody wants to know if they need to hire somebody who’s the next hire is not a bookkeeper or an accountant. if you ever hear in your office, the client just won’t, when things are backed up, if you hear somebody say, the client just won’t, you need to take that off that that person’s desk, because they’re not even asking the client. they won’t. they’re not getting the response they need immediately, and that just becomes the excuse get somebody else to do that, that function, to get the flow going again. it’s, it’s the flow of the work. it’s, it’s, it’s, i’ve had so many people call us and go, well, i just need help with this. because i’ll go, you know, what? if you just kind of like, give us a minute and and let us talk through this with you. i’ll bet you 10 to one you really don’t need us. let me hit let me recommend a couple of apps. see if these work for you, and come back in six months, you might have grown a little bit, and by then, you’ll need us. and that has happened if they don’t recognize that the reason they’re backed up is that the flow is stopped. and the flow stops because you’ve given somebody a job they don’t want to do, which is bug the client, or you’ve gotten an app that nobody bothered to implement with the client because they were not comfortable with it themselves. they didn’t like it, they didn’t want part of the process of getting, of being involved in utilizing it, and also, they’re not the kind of person that likes to pick up the phone and chit chat with the client and show them something like, you know, okay, i’m really bad at this. some people go, she will, you show me how to do this. and i’ll go, yeah, sure. and i might not have touched that app in about six months, but i’ll open it up and i’ll go, oh, let’s see. look at this. they got a new button. i act like, you know, i’m just as surprised and excited about it as they are. i know a lot of accountants probably would be uncomfortable with doing that. of course, i’d be uncomfortable doing a tax return and doing some books. so everybody’s got to find their own thing.
liz farr
that’s right, that’s right. now, what would you say are the biggest benefits to firms that implement this process?
penny breslin
i don’t want to change your business, like change what you do or anything. it’ll at least clean up your closet. that’s right, spring cleaning.
damien greathead
i think what it does is it gives firms longevity. it gives firms a competitive advantage. it gives firms a in doing this again, if i think about who are the fastest growing firms, and maybe that’s not the measure of success, but, but i’m thinking about these firms that don’t have recruitment and retention issues. i’m thinking about these firms that are growing sustainably. they’ve implemented this type of service, this type of process, and if i go back to just the talent side of the conversation, the firms that are doing this because they’re offering their their team members, i think, more interesting work than just repetitive tax seasons with the same clients, they’re offering the opportunity to grow into that fractional cfo. for a number of clients, they’re offering this technology side of things where the technology and ai is evolving so rapidly, and that is embraced within the firm, there’s just this learning constant, never ending learning sort of. a culture within the firm. and so i think the what’s the biggest benefit? i think revenue, profitability, absolutely, but actually longevity of the firm, finding and keeping good people and developing meaningful, lasting relationships with clients, which then become amazing referral sources. so it’s sort of this flywheel, actually, that that that is not going to say self sustaining, but is pretty much, is this, this flywheel effect of team members, happy team members, happy clients, happy partners and spouses, but better communities. and i think that’s, that’s one of it, one of the benefits of it. because i think accountants and bookkeepers have a phenomenal capability of telling stories from columns of numbers, which which small, medium sized businesses need, and that helps that that business succeed and grow. so i think that sort of might have gone a little bit sort of beyond the traditional benefits, but that’s where i see the benefits of providing this type of a service can be for a firm.
liz farr
yeah, and i would say that a big benefit is that it forces you to break out of the same as last year model of running a firm, absolutely that you’re not going to have the same organization structure, you’re not going to have the same fee structure, you’re not going to have the same services, and you’re probably also not going to have the same clients that you did before
damien greathead
and or team, and that can be really hard and really challenging to for, for three or four partners to sit in a room and agree on, but if you know, like the number of times our podcast has always gone back to and that’s okay, because if, if if you haven’t gotten gotten through chapter one and been very clear and aligned on what it is you want to do, then the ships never going to go in, in as efficiently or as smoothly as possible in the direction you want it to go. and i’ve certainly sat in a number of accounting firms where we’ve, we’ve, we’ve had the realization and of two or three partners sitting in a room saying, actually, this isn’t where i want to go, and that’s okay. and so actually, the best thing for this business to do is actually to split. we’ve had a couple of guests on our on now podcast penny that that amicable, amicable, best professional friends to this day as a result of someone saying it’s not working, we’ve got to break up. and i think to your point is, if you aren’t clear on what you want to do, and there’s not alignment within the leadership of the firm, then it’s going to be very difficult to move in in the direction that you want it to. so i think again, you go back to that number one chapter. what is it you want to be when you grow up? and make sure you and your partner agree on that? because if you don’t, then call it what it is and be okay with that.
liz farr
that’s right. that’s right. and now we’ve talked a lot about bringing the client in first, because that really is the key to having successful back office services. so what are the benefits to the clients from this?
penny breslin
all the client, not every client is going to be interested in this, okay, um, but those that are going to get a better business from it, if it’s a business client, or if there’s somebody you know you’re dealing with, high net worth, people trying to save on that tax and stuff, they’re going to have a better relationship with you, and they’re going to learn you’re also going to learn from them on how to get more clients like them. i mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the key is, when you find that you’re you’re in that sweet spot, now you know that’s the target. so the client is also teaching you. so listen, um, they’ll let you know. i think human beings overall are pretty decent people. and like i know our clients let us know when we’ve done something that they have found to be beneficial. um, and i think that in doing this, you know, i just i know that i see it in accountants faces and bookkeepers faces, that they understand what their client is going through, that there may be a way around a problem they have, but they often don’t. like they have the time or the right to say anything, i think it gives you a little bit of ability to have that discussion with somebody. and many business owners out there are just like an accountant who’s a business owner, they’re alone, and they need something to bounce somebody off. they need to be able to bounce stuff off of people, especially when it comes to money. money is a scary thing, tax and compliance. yeah, it’s tax and compliance. it’s really hard. i mean, it’s changing all the time, and the who has the guy down the street who is building houses doesn’t have time to to learn that, just like you as an accountant, probably cannot put in a sump pump, you know, i mean, so, yeah, they’re going to your clients are going to be happier because you’re actually going to give them, you’re going to be able to give them actionable information that they can use to make forward movement in their own business. what’s wrong with that?
liz farr
what client wouldn’t want that? yeah, and, and, and i’m imagining that that must be a big part of what your your teammate, megan, must do with her seven clients, and why she does. thanks. yeah,
penny breslin
i know, because they used to four of them used to be mine, and i maxed out at four while i was running the company. so she took over those, and we added three more on. and yeah, i mean, because, like, tomorrow, she’s got a, she’s got a take her daughter somewhere, so i’m going to be her back up, because we have all everything’s written down and documented, so i can just pop in and and back her up for a day, and i know they’ll be like, is she coming back? is she coming back? i mean, she is integral for them. they count on her, and she is not alone. when they ask her question. she has no problem saying, hey, i don’t have that answer right now, but i’m gonna go find the answer for you, and i’ll if i can’t do it, i’ll find out who will and she’s got that space and that capability. they’re paying us for her to have that space and capability to do that. so, yeah, i mean, i could tell you this, every one of them would hire her in a heartbeat. so, you know, i guess that’s something some people might be afraid of. yeah, i always tell her, look at if somebody offers you a hell of a good deal, i’ll be the first one to help you back it up and go for it so. but she’s yeah, and i just really appreciated her letting me know that’s it. can’t take on anymore. cool, good
liz farr
now. now we finished this book several years ago. what are some of the changes that you would make if we were updating it?
penny breslin
well, the changes would be what’s happened already, the changes that have occurred, new technology, ai, a we have we, when we were writing that, we went through covid, now we’re back out of it. so a lot of changes have happened there would be like when i wrote the first book, i had to define what an msp was and an as an asp and a psa. now people know those terms easily, so i don’t have to spend time explaining it. i don’t have to spend time explaining some of the things that are now commonplace, just like i didn’t have to define what a tech stack was in the second book and the first book, i did because it was a concept that was relatively new. i think ai would be a little bit more of a focus. the difference between ai prompts and agents versus robotic process automation, where it fits in, what you have to change to allow ai to fit in, how you have to change security is now, again, having to be changed because of it, how you’re utilizing it within your firm. how does it benefit you? how does it benefit your client? um, yeah, how’s it going to change? it’s going to change a lot of things.
damien greathead
i think, in addition to that, i would also look at, i think we focus very much on the firm in it’s, it’s, it’s not just the numbers, but actually. really understanding the needs of the client and building service offerings to match the needs of the client. so i think in today’s economic environment, it’s probably more challenging to run a business than it’s ever been. so what are the types of services that small, medium sized businesses need that accounting firms are perfectly positioned to help with. how do we how do we build that strategic partnership relationship so that we can be delivering those so i would probably spend a little bit a little bit more time on the client and meeting the needs of the client, understanding the needs of the client. i would probably spend a bit more time on the how do you communicate this to your clients? so the marketing, i hate to use the word marketing, but actually marketing and selling to your clients, and sort of being more structured and standardized in that process, just as you’re you’re standardized and process driven in the back office. that that from a sales and marketing perspective as well, there would be probably areas, yeah, as penny said, i think we can lay off on the hosted, hosted providers, etc, but to come into some of the other areas that we’re seeing and probably delve into pricing a little bit more, probably delve into ai as a team member, a little bit more. yeah, they’re probably the areas that i see a lot of questions coming up on chat forums and facebook and linkedin discussion groups. is, is, is, how do we integrate ai into our team so that it’s not seen as a threat? and then, how do we help our clients understand how we’re leveraging ai, while at the same time maintaining our fee level, slash increasing our fees. because a lot of people will be like, well, hang on, if ai is doing all the work, why are you charging me? why aren’t you decreasing the price? so i think some of those types of those types of conversations
liz farr
exactly, exactly, and i’ll be ready whenever you two are to
penny breslin
i think damien and i already discussed. yeah, he’s already pushing it, so got a
damien greathead
few chapters on in mind. yeah, yeah.
liz farr
fantastic. now, as my last question to you two, i want you to get out your crystal balls and think about, where do you see accounting in 10 years?
damien greathead
okay, i’ll quickly go because i think penny will probably have a much more sort of intelligent answer. i think there’s going to be a real separation of within accounting. i think there’s going to be there’s going to be the, i don’t want to call it low end, let’s call it less complex, requirements of the individuals, of the sole operators. and i think they’re going to be there. they’re going to be done, it’s going to be more technology driven, even h&r block, i think is going to have challenges maintaining that’s that sort of market share. so i think there’s going to be that split of based on complexity of client and complexity of task. and so some people will some clients, lot of clients will go that way, and a lot of firms will go that way, and it will be around leveraging technology and and standardizing and streamlining and as much as possible. and then i think the the other way in which firms will go is where the the pool of clients that they work with is smaller, but the services that they deliver and the role that they play is significantly greater than just tax or just tax and sort of year end close and that type of thing. so that’s sort of a very simplified answer of i think, yeah, the bit of a fork in the road as to where do you want to be, is it? is it in the complex and and high value, high margin, or is it in the less complex low margin volume game? not to say that there’s anything wrong with either of those choices, either of those folks in the road, but you have to be very clear about which path you’re taking. and i think those those firms that make that choice sooner will be infinitely more successful and and and profitable than others that sort of decide to keep a sort of a foot in both both boats, so to speak, or both camps, for a longer period of time.
penny breslin
and that was intelligent, and is exactly what i i couldn’t have said it that. well, actually, primarily because i don’t have the accent, right?
damien greathead
well, that’s what it is. yeah, that’s what it
penny breslin
- no, i agree. i agree with what damien said. i do see that happening. it’s like, you know, the the office, the furniture store. that sells, you know, mass made furniture versus the custom cabinet maker. and i, you know what? that’s what’s going to happen with ai, you know, it’s it. the thing that’s going to distinguish you from ai is the human element and context that you can bring to the relationship with the client. you can use the ai to get you up on that diving board, but you when you jump off, at your humaneness and your contextual understanding when you dive off that board, that’s going to make it a perfect dive. the ai is there to just get you up the ladder and out to the edge of the diving board. i don’t know why i use the diving board analogy. i think because sometimes this can be very scary. and for me, heights are a scary thing. so i think that, yeah, i can understand what it’d be scary, but i agree that there’s going to be those that are going to be volume, nothing wrong with that, and well needed will be needed. and then those that are going to have smaller client bases, but a lot deeper knowledge within the business client,
liz farr
i think you’re you’re both onto something, and i hadn’t, haven’t heard too many people put it in those terms, that there will be a division between, really, the more commodity type service and the customized concierge service. but i think that firms will have to choose which one, because you can’t possibly do both.
penny breslin
i use the concierge doctor, right? that’s all he does, and he does very well. and, you know, it’s and i’m real happy he’s there, and i’m very happy to pay his price. and i’m lucky i can, and because he makes anything i have to do just a lot easier to deal with and get through. and now i’ve told him, he goes, i remember when i first started using them and and he said, why did you come to me? and i said, because i need an advocate. i don’t understand the medical profession. i don’t understand i don’t particularly care to go to doctors. i don’t like doctors not i’m i stay away from as much as possible, but i have to deal with them once in a while. i need you to be my advocate. and that’s basically what you become. you become your client’s financial advocate.
liz farr
i’d love it. i love it. and i think that that’s the perfect way to end our conversation. so i want to thank both of you for taking the time to talk to me. and where is the best place to connect with you,
penny breslin
well, with both of us right now at moneypenny. so if you’re going to scaling new heights this year, both damien and i are going to be there along with some of my team from india. but damien,
damien greathead
yeah, you can find me. you can find me on linkedin. damien greathead, there’s literally only one of me. so that’s that’s easy. yeah. so linkedin is probably the best place to connect. shoot any questions through but yeah, be be joining penny and the team in orlando later this year, as well as i started get get more involved with moneypenny, which i’m really excited about.
liz farr
fantastic. well, thanks,
penny breslin
and then we’ll be talking to you. liz, no doubt, because it sounds like we’ve already got a couple of chapters going between the two of us. so
liz farr
i can’t, i can’t wait to put it into a usable format and to learn, yeah, that it really was a huge learning experience for me to work on this book, and i want to thank both of you for teaching me so much.